Original article (in French):

http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/un-avion-heurte-une-passerelle-a-orly-07-07-2010-992696.php

Excerpts (translated):

Passengers on a flight operated by Turkish low-cost carrier Pegasus were
unable to take off from Orly Wednesday afternoon. One of the wings of the
aircraft struck a jet bridge just before its takeoff for Istanbul, grounding
the aircraft. [...] According to an employe who witnessed the incident, it's
the fault "either of the pilot, or of the airport personnel, who incorrectly
positioned the jet bridge." However, according to Aéroports de Paris,
"responsibility has not yet been determined, but it's clear that it wasn't the
jet bridge that was out of place."

Since this is a Turkish airline, I think we can safely assume that the pilots
messed up. Indeed, if the jet bridge was not incorrectly positioned, there
aren't too many other possibilities.

I'm surprised that passengers were willing to wait for a later flight on the
same carrier, instead of simply switching airlines.

et on s'en fout...

"Mxsmanic" > a écrit dans le message de groupe de
discussion : ...
> Original article (in French):
>
> http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/un-avion-heurte-une-passerelle-a-orly-07-07-2010-992696.php
>
> Excerpts (translated):
>
> Passengers on a flight operated by Turkish low-cost carrier Pegasus were
> unable to take off from Orly Wednesday afternoon. One of the wings of the
> aircraft struck a jet bridge just before its takeoff for Istanbul,
> grounding
> the aircraft. [...] According to an employe who witnessed the incident,
> it's
> the fault "either of the pilot, or of the airport personnel, who
> incorrectly
> positioned the jet bridge." However, according to Aéroports de Paris,
> "responsibility has not yet been determined, but it's clear that it wasn't
> the
> jet bridge that was out of place."
>
> Since this is a Turkish airline, I think we can safely assume that the
> pilots
> messed up. Indeed, if the jet bridge was not incorrectly positioned, there
> aren't too many other possibilities.
>
> I'm surprised that passengers were willing to wait for a later flight on
> the
> same carrier, instead of simply switching airlines.

On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:01:14 +0200 Mxsmanic > wrote:

:>Original article (in French):

:>http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/un-avion-heurte-une-passerelle-a-orly-07-07-2010-992696.php

:>Excerpts (translated):

:>Passengers on a flight operated by Turkish low-cost carrier Pegasus were
:>unable to take off from Orly Wednesday afternoon. One of the wings of the
:>aircraft struck a jet bridge just before its takeoff for Istanbul, grounding
:>the aircraft. [...] According to an employe who witnessed the incident, it's
:>the fault "either of the pilot, or of the airport personnel, who incorrectly
:>positioned the jet bridge." However, according to Aéroports de Paris,
:>"responsibility has not yet been determined, but it's clear that it wasn't the
:>jet bridge that was out of place."

:>Since this is a Turkish airline, I think we can safely assume that the pilots
:>messed up. Indeed, if the jet bridge was not incorrectly positioned, there
:>aren't too many other possibilities.

:>I'm surprised that passengers were willing to wait for a later flight on the
:>same carrier, instead of simply switching airlines.

Turkish PM Erdogan and the UN have already blamed Israeli sabotage.

--
Binyamin Dissen >
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.

In article >,
says...

The Greeks clearly altered the position of the jetbridge in retaliation for
Jenifer Lopez's concert in Turkish Cypress.

>


>Since this is a Turkish airline, I think we can safely assume that the pilots
>messed up. Indeed, if the jet bridge was not incorrectly positioned, there
>aren't too many other possibilities.
>
>I'm surprised that passengers were willing to wait for a later flight on the
>same carrier, instead of simply switching airlines.

Some may be Turkish, and feel theirs are the best pilots. Others may simply
not share your strong cultural and racial prejudices.

Binyamin Dissen writes:

> Turkish PM Erdogan and the UN have already blamed Israeli sabotage.

Short of having a magic mind ray that can reduce a person's IQ by 25 points,
how could the Israelis possibly have sabotaged this, and how would they profit
from sabotage even if the had done it?

VOR-DME writes:

> Some may be Turkish, and feel theirs are the best pilots. Others may simply
> not share your strong cultural and racial prejudices.

Either way, they don't look at the statistics.

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Binyamin Dissen writes:
>
> > Turkish PM Erdogan and the UN have already blamed Israeli sabotage.
>
> Short of having a magic mind ray that can reduce a person's IQ by 25 points,
> how could the Israelis possibly have sabotaged this, and how would they profit
> from sabotage even if the had done it?

I think this is the Middle Eastern equivalent of anything being either
Bush's or Obama's fault, depending on your outlook, no matter what the
subject.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Original article (in French):
>
> http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/un-avion-heurte-une-passerelle-a-orly-07-07-2010-992696.php
>
> Excerpts (translated):
>
> Passengers on a flight operated by Turkish low-cost carrier Pegasus were
> unable to take off from Orly Wednesday afternoon. One of the wings of the
> aircraft struck a jet bridge just before its takeoff for Istanbul,
> grounding
> the aircraft. [...] According to an employe who witnessed the incident,
> it's
> the fault "either of the pilot, or of the airport personnel, who
> incorrectly
> positioned the jet bridge." However, according to Aéroports de Paris,
> "responsibility has not yet been determined, but it's clear that it wasn't
> the
> jet bridge that was out of place."
>
> Since this is a Turkish airline, I think we can safely assume that the
> pilots
> messed up.

I think we can safely assume you're an idiot.
And a vile bigot. Who else would turn a minor accident at an airport into a
racial slur?


>Indeed, if the jet bridge was not incorrectly positioned, there
> aren't too many other possibilities.

Indeed. And the source of the report absolved itself of blame without an
investigation.

>
> I'm surprised that passengers were willing to wait for a later flight on
> the
> same carrier, instead of simply switching airlines.

Kurt Ullman writes:

> I think this is the Middle Eastern equivalent of anything being either
> Bush's or Obama's fault, depending on your outlook, no matter what the
> subject.

And Turkey wants to be part of the European Union? The country is still living
in the 12th century, in too many respects. Its aviation record is the worst in
Europe, if you generously consider Turkey to be part of Europe (which I
don't).

Grand Mal writes:

> I think we can safely assume you're an idiot.
> And a vile bigot. Who else would turn a minor accident at an airport into a
> racial slur?

Turks belong to the same race as Europeans, so race has nothing to do with it.

The fact is, the aviation safety record for Turkey is abysmal, about ten times
worse than average for European airlines (if you consider Turkey part of
Europe--which I do not).

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Grand Mal writes:
>
>> I think we can safely assume you're an idiot.
>> And a vile bigot. Who else would turn a minor accident at an airport into a
>> racial slur?
>
> Turks belong to the same race as Europeans, so race has nothing to do with it.

Not quite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_origins_of_the_Turkish_people



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Grand Mal writes:
>
> > I think we can safely assume you're an idiot.
> > And a vile bigot. Who else would turn a minor accident at an airport into a
> > racial slur?
>
> Turks belong to the same race as Europeans, so race has nothing to do with it.
>
> The fact is, the aviation safety record for Turkey is abysmal, about ten times
> worse than average for European airlines (if you consider Turkey part of
> Europe--which I do not).

I've read the several recent posts critical of Turkey's politics and its
aviation safety record, and think there's some significant point to most
of them (except the racial slur one, which _was_ a racial slur).

But let me also tell you: The prestigious US university EE Dept from
which I'm retired gets a fair number of its PhD grad students from
Turkey; I've known a fair number of them well (though never actually had
one as a PhD student of mine); they're superb students technically (they
have to be, to get into this program), and they are also superb
individuals on a purely personal basis.

I just visited the ETH in Zurich (the top technical university in
Switzerland and among the top such schools in Europe), where I spent
time with one of these graduates of ours, who was recruited there (away
from a post at a good US university); has built a large and excellent
program there; and has since received tenure at a very early age.

We'd better find a way to help Turkey itself also move up into the
Western world, and not sink back down into the Middle Eastern.

In article >,
says...

>
>Turks belong to the same race as Europeans, so race has nothing to do with
it.
>
>The fact is, the aviation safety record for Turkey is abysmal, about ten
times
>worse than average for European airlines (if you consider Turkey part of
>Europe--which I do not).

I know this is beating a dead horse, but do you care to offer some proof to
support that "fact"?

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> ------------some snipped---------
> The fact is, the aviation safety record for Turkey is abysmal, about ten
> times
> worse than average for European airlines (if you consider Turkey part of
> Europe--which I do not).

At the risk of flagellating a deceased equine, you really are a bit of a
jerk.

writes:

> Not quite.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_origins_of_the_Turkish_people

Be that as it may, genetics and race have nothing to do with the incompetence
of Turkish aviation. It's cultural.

AES writes:

> But let me also tell you: The prestigious US university EE Dept from
> which I'm retired gets a fair number of its PhD grad students from
> Turkey; I've known a fair number of them well (though never actually had
> one as a PhD student of mine); they're superb students technically (they
> have to be, to get into this program), and they are also superb
> individuals on a purely personal basis.

Pilots do not generally have doctorates. Different population, different
culture.

> We'd better find a way to help Turkey itself also move up into the
> Western world, and not sink back down into the Middle Eastern.

Turkey needs to solve its own problems, like every other country. If they are
indeed fundamentally competent, then they don't need help. Their culture is
apparently more linked to the Middle East than Europe, which is bad for
development and advancement into the 20th (and eventually the 21st) century.

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
>
>> Not quite.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_origins_of_the_Turkish_people
>
> Be that as it may, genetics and race have nothing to do with the incompetence
> of Turkish aviation. It's cultural.

Do you have something to back up this statement or are you just pulling it
out of your ass?


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Grand Mal writes:
>
>> I think we can safely assume you're an idiot.
>> And a vile bigot. Who else would turn a minor accident at an airport into
>> a
>> racial slur?
>
> Turks belong to the same race as Europeans, so race has nothing to do with
> it.
>
> The fact is, the aviation safety record for Turkey is abysmal, about ten
> times
> worse than average for European airlines (if you consider Turkey part of
> Europe--which I do not).

Turks are Europeans but Turkey isn't part of Europe.
If it was the fault of the pilot, what if he turns out to be an Englishman?
Or American? And how poor does a safety record need to be before a French
airport won't allow you to use their facility?

On Jul 11, 11:21*am, "Grand Mal" > wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Grand Mal writes:
>
> >> I think we can safely assume you're an idiot.
> >> And a vile bigot. Who else would turn a minor accident at an airport into
> >> a
> >> racial slur?
>
> > Turks belong to the same race as Europeans, so race has nothing to do with
> > it.
>
> > The fact is, the aviation safety record for Turkey is abysmal, about ten
> > times
> > worse than average for European airlines (if you consider Turkey part of
> > Europe--which I do not).
>
> Turks are Europeans but Turkey isn't part of Europe.
> If it was the fault of the pilot, what if he turns out to be an Englishman?
> Or American? And how poor does a safety record need to be before a French
> airport won't allow you to use their facility?

One would expect the ground crew to be French nationals, but perhaps
trained to Turkish standards. Are people who hand direct airplanes or
use tugs certified in any way? I have not seen anything 'official'
regarding the causes of this accident, but it has certainly exposed
bigotry and bias on the news group, hasn't it?

Grand Mal writes:

> Turks are Europeans but Turkey isn't part of Europe.
> If it was the fault of the pilot, what if he turns out to be an Englishman?

He's still working for a Turkish airline, and the problem is in the management
of the airline and the culture of aviation, not in individual pilots. An
incompetent airline could hire incompetent English pilots just as easily as it
could hire incompetent Turkish pilots.

> Or American? And how poor does a safety record need to be before a French
> airport won't allow you to use their facility?

I believe French airports largely go with the European Union, which has banned
quite a number of airlines, including most African airlines and some airlines
in Asia.

In article
>,
says...

>
>One would expect the ground crew to be French nationals, but perhaps
>trained to Turkish standards. Are people who hand direct airplanes or
>use tugs certified in any way? I have not seen anything 'official'
>regarding the causes of this accident, but it has certainly exposed
>bigotry and bias on the news group, hasn't it?
>


The worst tragedy in Turkish airline history happened in France, due to a
known defect in a US-manufactured aircraft (DC-10 cargo door)improperly
repaired by a UK maintenance firm, known to, but possibly incompletely
understood, and in any case incorrectly checked by a French worker of
Algerian origin, in absence of the French Service Manager (on French
vacation). Dirty Turks!

In article >,
VOR-DME > wrote:

>
> The worst tragedy in Turkish airline history happened in France, due to a
> known defect in a US-manufactured aircraft (DC-10 cargo door)improperly
> repaired by a UK maintenance firm, known to, but possibly incompletely
> understood, and in any case incorrectly checked by a French worker of
> Algerian origin, in absence of the French Service Manager (on French
> vacation). Dirty Turks!

Now I know why I'm heavily prejudiced against every single
group on that list !!! (exceprt the Turks, that is)

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Grand Mal writes:
>
>> Turks are Europeans but Turkey isn't part of Europe.
>> If it was the fault of the pilot, what if he turns out to be an
>> Englishman?
>
> He's still working for a Turkish airline, and the problem is in the
> management
> of the airline and the culture of aviation, not in individual pilots. An
> incompetent airline could hire incompetent English pilots just as easily
> as it
> could hire incompetent Turkish pilots.

The culture of aviation? An incompetent English pilot would be a symptom of
Turkish incompetence?
You ought to sit down and shut up, son. You don't have the tools to bull****
yourself out of the position you've backed into.

>
>> Or American? And how poor does a safety record need to be before a French
>> airport won't allow you to use their facility?
>
> I believe French airports largely go with the European Union, which has
> banned
> quite a number of airlines, including most African airlines and some
> airlines
> in Asia.

Grand Mal writes:

> The culture of aviation?

Yes. Different countries have demonstrably different attitudes towards
aviation safety, with some being far more cavalier about it than others. Some
place longstanding cultural standards of interaction among persons of
different rank above safety in priority; CRM tends to be difficult to improve
in such cultures.

> An incompetent English pilot would be a symptom of Turkish incompetence?

Multiple incompetent pilots are a sure sign of a problem with the airline or
(if it affects multiple airlines) with the culture in which the airline
operates.

We're still waiting for you to justify some of your statements.
Your cultural and racial prejudices do not convince us there is any truth in
your assertions. On the contrary, for many of us they weaken your arguments.




In article >,
says...
>
>
>Grand Mal writes:
>
>> The culture of aviation?
>
>Yes. Different countries have demonstrably different attitudes towards
>aviation safety, with some being far more cavalier about it than others. Some
>place longstanding cultural standards of interaction among persons of
>different rank above safety in priority; CRM tends to be difficult to improve
>in such cultures.
>
>> An incompetent English pilot would be a symptom of Turkish incompetence?
>
>Multiple incompetent pilots are a sure sign of a problem with the airline or
>(if it affects multiple airlines) with the culture in which the airline
>operates.

VOR-DME writes:

> We're still waiting for you to justify some of your statements.
> Your cultural and racial prejudices do not convince us there is any truth in
> your assertions. On the contrary, for many of us they weaken your arguments.

Allowing political correctness to compromise safety puts many lives at risk.

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:
> VOR-DME writes:
>
>> We're still waiting for you to justify some of your statements.
>> Your cultural and racial prejudices do not convince us there is any truth in
>> your assertions. On the contrary, for many of us they weaken your arguments.
>
> Allowing political correctness to compromise safety puts many lives at risk.

Meaningless happy talk babble.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In article >,
says...

>
>Allowing political correctness to compromise safety puts many lives at risk.

Allowing pejudices to cloud one's thinking is characteristic of feeble
mindedness, and can put the world at risk.

"VOR-DME" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
>
> says...
>
>>
>>Allowing political correctness to compromise safety puts many lives at
>>risk.
>
> Allowing pejudices to cloud one's thinking is characteristic of feeble
> mindedness, and can put the world at risk.
>
"Can" might, just possibly, be an ever-so-slight understatement.

On Jul 13, 8:56*am, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
> "VOR-DME" > wrote in message
>
> ...> In article >,
> >
> > says...
>
> >>Allowing political correctness to compromise safety puts many lives at
> >>risk.
>
> > Allowing pejudices to cloud one's thinking is characteristic of feeble
> > mindedness, and can put the world at risk.
>
> "Can" might, just possibly, be an ever-so-slight understatement.

In the present case, the poster whose biases are being displayed is
known to be without much authority: if bigots must exist let them be
among those who are incapable of of acting on their biases, or
influencing others to do so.

In article
>,
says...

>
>In the present case, the poster whose biases are being displayed is
>known to be without much authority: if bigots must exist let them be
>among those who are incapable of of acting on their biases, or
>influencing others to do so.


:-)